408 resurrection / potluck
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408 resurrection / potluck
Back in 2014, I yanked my old 408 out of the Chevelle after it was making death rattle noises, even though it was a new build, but following other failures. With the success of the ZZ383, I basically got the rest of the car finished, which has been *awesome*.
But this thing has been sitting in the corner, and over the past few months, I slowly started sorting it out. The a-ha moment came a few months back when I took the failed rod and rod bearing to Michael's. I asked him to just measure the failed bearing, and he said it was for a std size rod. I have a .020-under crank. After that, I had him measure the crank to verify was indeed .020-under. That's why it never had oil pressure, thats why it rattled, there was a wrong bearing in there. So for $150ish, I got my rod re-sized and a new set of main/rod bearings.
I also had a set of Vortec heads in the corner -- they were the ones that I had originally put on the Blazer, only to find out they had a bent valve. These came off a used motor I bought in Mantua in prob 2012-2013. I dropped them off with Michael and had them completely rebuilt, also using my higher-perf valve springs. He also drilled steam holes for a 400. I finally got everything assembled the past few weeks, stabbing in my Lunati HFT 233/241 504/525, topping it off with the single-plane carb intake from the ZZ383, Tony's Holley SA670 and my 12-second certified HEI. Compression is about 10:1.
During final assembly, I used a primer tool on my cordless drill and immediately got 40+ psi and oil out the top end quickly. That had me kinda pumped. I bolted on a set of rams horn manifolds, my old mini-starter, and robbed the battery from my Chevelle. A little gas down the carb and it fired right up!! I've got 60psi of oil pressure and it sounds pretty good! I don't have any water in it, so I'm only running it for 10-20 seconds at a time.
Not sure what I'm gonna do with it just yet, but running motors are better than piles of parts. And I suspect this one could be a decent runner.
-Dave
But this thing has been sitting in the corner, and over the past few months, I slowly started sorting it out. The a-ha moment came a few months back when I took the failed rod and rod bearing to Michael's. I asked him to just measure the failed bearing, and he said it was for a std size rod. I have a .020-under crank. After that, I had him measure the crank to verify was indeed .020-under. That's why it never had oil pressure, thats why it rattled, there was a wrong bearing in there. So for $150ish, I got my rod re-sized and a new set of main/rod bearings.
I also had a set of Vortec heads in the corner -- they were the ones that I had originally put on the Blazer, only to find out they had a bent valve. These came off a used motor I bought in Mantua in prob 2012-2013. I dropped them off with Michael and had them completely rebuilt, also using my higher-perf valve springs. He also drilled steam holes for a 400. I finally got everything assembled the past few weeks, stabbing in my Lunati HFT 233/241 504/525, topping it off with the single-plane carb intake from the ZZ383, Tony's Holley SA670 and my 12-second certified HEI. Compression is about 10:1.
During final assembly, I used a primer tool on my cordless drill and immediately got 40+ psi and oil out the top end quickly. That had me kinda pumped. I bolted on a set of rams horn manifolds, my old mini-starter, and robbed the battery from my Chevelle. A little gas down the carb and it fired right up!! I've got 60psi of oil pressure and it sounds pretty good! I don't have any water in it, so I'm only running it for 10-20 seconds at a time.
Not sure what I'm gonna do with it just yet, but running motors are better than piles of parts. And I suspect this one could be a decent runner.
-Dave
Re: 408 resurrection / potluck
My money says you will never assemble one again without the plastigage! It's the last line of defense against these types of things.
Glad to hear it is back online. Now if you only had that old 305 powered truck still sitting around lol.
Would a TPI bolt onto those heads?
Glad to hear it is back online. Now if you only had that old 305 powered truck still sitting around lol.
Would a TPI bolt onto those heads?
[quote="Basement Paul"]Is that a mint rocketship on the hood?? :shock:
-BP[/quote]
-BP[/quote]
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Re: 408 resurrection / potluck
Sadly, no, a TPI won't bolt onto these heads. They do make an aftermarket TPI base for Vortec heads, but I don't have one.
-Dave
-Dave
Re: 408 resurrection / potluck
I can't help wondering how the wrong bearing got in there.
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Re: 408 resurrection / potluck
I wonder too. But every bearing that went in this time was marked .020.
-Dave
-Dave
Re: 408 resurrection / potluck
seems like the old Vette would be a lot faster with that 408 in it ![Wink ;)](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
![Wink ;)](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
[quote="Basement Paul"]Is that a mint rocketship on the hood?? :shock:
-BP[/quote]
-BP[/quote]
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Re: 408 resurrection / potluck
I've had several suggestions to do that, but there's a few reasons it's unlikely:
1) I don't consider this engine reliable. It's had its issues in the past, and I simply don't trust it -- yet. The current 350, lackluster as it is, has been 100% reliable since day 1.
2) Having Vortec heads, like its current 350, would continue my hood clearance issue in that car.
3) I'm not sure my dad would be thrilled with it. On paper, or as a discussion, I'm 99.9% sure he'd not care for it, especially as nothing is wrong with the current engine. I only took the 327 out because it was making noises (remember everyone standing around it at Carlisle??). If he had his way, it'd probably still be in there.
4) The Chevelle is a *way* easier car to swap engines.
However, when I finally have my new engine from Dayton, the ZZ383 could potentially find a home in the '63, if I can put a regular intake on it. (it has both intake bolt patterns)
Paul and Tony both volunteered to help me do the swap on Saturday in the Chevelle, and its hard to turn down free help. This should literally be the easiest swap I've ever done. There should be --zero-- rework involved, just an intake manifold swap. I had minor issues when I installed ZZ383 back in '14, but even those issues have been resolved/eliminated.
-Dave
1) I don't consider this engine reliable. It's had its issues in the past, and I simply don't trust it -- yet. The current 350, lackluster as it is, has been 100% reliable since day 1.
2) Having Vortec heads, like its current 350, would continue my hood clearance issue in that car.
3) I'm not sure my dad would be thrilled with it. On paper, or as a discussion, I'm 99.9% sure he'd not care for it, especially as nothing is wrong with the current engine. I only took the 327 out because it was making noises (remember everyone standing around it at Carlisle??). If he had his way, it'd probably still be in there.
4) The Chevelle is a *way* easier car to swap engines.
However, when I finally have my new engine from Dayton, the ZZ383 could potentially find a home in the '63, if I can put a regular intake on it. (it has both intake bolt patterns)
Paul and Tony both volunteered to help me do the swap on Saturday in the Chevelle, and its hard to turn down free help. This should literally be the easiest swap I've ever done. There should be --zero-- rework involved, just an intake manifold swap. I had minor issues when I installed ZZ383 back in '14, but even those issues have been resolved/eliminated.
-Dave
Re: 408 resurrection / potluck
Understood. Something will turn up
[quote="Basement Paul"]Is that a mint rocketship on the hood?? :shock:
-BP[/quote]
-BP[/quote]
Re: 408 resurrection / potluck
I'm looking forward to seeing a new episode of "TireSmoke GARAGE" sometime Saturday afternoon,
expecting to view a first start video. 'Smoke and his team can do it! Have fun!
(I'm thinking 6 hrs., 3 out and 3 in.)
expecting to view a first start video. 'Smoke and his team can do it! Have fun!
(I'm thinking 6 hrs., 3 out and 3 in.)
Fred32v
GMC Canyon Crew Cab Short Box 4x4 V6!
GMC Canyon Crew Cab Short Box 4x4 V6!
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Re: 408 resurrection / potluck
Just like any other drama filled car show, the drama started before a wrench was turned. I have to shuffle all the cars in the garage to get the Chevelle into the lift bay, currently occupied by the 90Vette. yOu wOnT bElIeVe wHaT hApPeNs nExT!!
A corvette stuck in snow-- the joker in charge of this show clearly not off to a good start. After an assist from Gwen and my sister Karen (who had the unfortunate luck of showing up at the wrong time), we managed to get the Vette back in the garage. I called my cousin Troy and he was able to come out that night and plow out the back area by the garage.
-Dave
A corvette stuck in snow-- the joker in charge of this show clearly not off to a good start. After an assist from Gwen and my sister Karen (who had the unfortunate luck of showing up at the wrong time), we managed to get the Vette back in the garage. I called my cousin Troy and he was able to come out that night and plow out the back area by the garage.
-Dave
Re: 408 resurrection / potluck
I need a one page engine accounting from 'Smoker. Since you are an accountant, Blue Malibu, you can help him. I spent too much time, without much success, cruising these posts to find out which engine is which and where they are and where they are potentially destined to live. You owe it to your readers.
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Re: 408 resurrection / potluck
Ok... we can start from The Beginning, 1990. My new to me '70 Chevelle had a 400 small block w/ 2bbl-carb. After various upgrades, including my first rebuild (rings/bearings/cam/heads) in 1992. This engine lasted until it threw a rod in 1999, back in the pre-Tiresmoke era.
In 2001.. i built a professionally machined, but assembled-by-me 406, cast-iron 487X heads, maybe a Summit 234/244 cam, Performer RPM, Holley 750. I think it went 12.80s @ 106. This engine was the first Megasquirt conversion, and by 2005-2006 was running well enough that I remember driving it home from Tony's in Avon in heavy rain and the it ran without a hitch. I upgraded to the E-tec 170 heads, and in limited testing, ran really strong.
In the winter of 2006-2007, tragedy struck when straight water was left in my engine, it froze, and cracked the block. I sold the old block and acquired another 400 block, took my rotating assembly to Michaels and had him machine the block to fit my parts. I moved to Chesterland in 2007, which was in the middle of yet another engine swap. In 2008, I went 12.34 @ 110 with it, but I ended up blowing a head gasket. Frustrated, I left it sit for 2008-2009, when I acquired the SV650.
When I got back to it in 2010-ish, some water had sat in the bore, requiring the extra .010-overbore (now .040 over), which meant new pistons (and I went for dished pistons this time to keep compression to 10:1 with a 64cc head. More machine work, another engine swap , although Tony was gracious enough to let me use his 350 in late 2010-thru part (most?) of 2011.
In 2012, I acquired some Etec 200cc heads, as Tony wanted to buy my Etec 170s. I topped my now-408 with the Etec 200s, added in a Lunati 233/241 cam that I got as a b-day gift, put it all in the car, only to have oil pressure issues and rattling noise. At this point, I've about lost my mind with engine rebuilds, and if you go back and look at the Chevelle thread from back then, I was like "what do i really have? its non-running, getting-rustier with a rapidly aging interior, junky car."
SOOOO.. that 408 was yanked when the ZZ383 was purchased and has sat in various states of disassembly for a while. After the ZZ383 had been running so well after all these years, and everything else in the car got addressed, I finally dived back into the 408 and the found oil pressure problem tracked to an incorrectly sized/failed #2 rod bearing. It was a std-size bearing on a .020-under crank. It was not caught during assembly. The dished pistons are like brand new, hardly any run time on them, so Michaels was able to re-size my #2 rod, he verified my crank was indeed .020/.020 under on mains and rods, and ordered a new set of bearings. ($150 total)
At this point, still disassembled but with all correct pieces now, I had listed it for sale on Facebook Marketplace in, but didnt get any good offers. I was already deciding on getting a professionally built engine like Tony's, because there was just no way I was going to rely on this thing. So then I did the next smartest thing, which was to spend more money and have a set of GM Vortec heads rebuilt by Michaels, add upgraded valve springs for HFT cam (from inventory), and add some steam holes for a 400. ($500). These were the heads I originally put on the S10 blazer's 350, only to find they had a bent valve.
I slowly re-assembled the short block last fall and really got a fire under my ass about it last weekend when I fully assembled the engine and got it fired on the engine cradle.
So, that's the long history of how we got to this point. So, I'm basically into it for a fresh $650 plus some gaskets and labor. Keep in mind, this block is now .040-over, a lot for a 400, it's got a .020/.020 cut crank, and the crank journals were line bored, which requires the use of special .005-shorter timing chain. There's nothing left to give. It does have forged pistons and decent rod bolts. If it stays together, it should be pretty strong.
-Dave
In 2001.. i built a professionally machined, but assembled-by-me 406, cast-iron 487X heads, maybe a Summit 234/244 cam, Performer RPM, Holley 750. I think it went 12.80s @ 106. This engine was the first Megasquirt conversion, and by 2005-2006 was running well enough that I remember driving it home from Tony's in Avon in heavy rain and the it ran without a hitch. I upgraded to the E-tec 170 heads, and in limited testing, ran really strong.
In the winter of 2006-2007, tragedy struck when straight water was left in my engine, it froze, and cracked the block. I sold the old block and acquired another 400 block, took my rotating assembly to Michaels and had him machine the block to fit my parts. I moved to Chesterland in 2007, which was in the middle of yet another engine swap. In 2008, I went 12.34 @ 110 with it, but I ended up blowing a head gasket. Frustrated, I left it sit for 2008-2009, when I acquired the SV650.
When I got back to it in 2010-ish, some water had sat in the bore, requiring the extra .010-overbore (now .040 over), which meant new pistons (and I went for dished pistons this time to keep compression to 10:1 with a 64cc head. More machine work, another engine swap , although Tony was gracious enough to let me use his 350 in late 2010-thru part (most?) of 2011.
In 2012, I acquired some Etec 200cc heads, as Tony wanted to buy my Etec 170s. I topped my now-408 with the Etec 200s, added in a Lunati 233/241 cam that I got as a b-day gift, put it all in the car, only to have oil pressure issues and rattling noise. At this point, I've about lost my mind with engine rebuilds, and if you go back and look at the Chevelle thread from back then, I was like "what do i really have? its non-running, getting-rustier with a rapidly aging interior, junky car."
SOOOO.. that 408 was yanked when the ZZ383 was purchased and has sat in various states of disassembly for a while. After the ZZ383 had been running so well after all these years, and everything else in the car got addressed, I finally dived back into the 408 and the found oil pressure problem tracked to an incorrectly sized/failed #2 rod bearing. It was a std-size bearing on a .020-under crank. It was not caught during assembly. The dished pistons are like brand new, hardly any run time on them, so Michaels was able to re-size my #2 rod, he verified my crank was indeed .020/.020 under on mains and rods, and ordered a new set of bearings. ($150 total)
At this point, still disassembled but with all correct pieces now, I had listed it for sale on Facebook Marketplace in, but didnt get any good offers. I was already deciding on getting a professionally built engine like Tony's, because there was just no way I was going to rely on this thing. So then I did the next smartest thing, which was to spend more money and have a set of GM Vortec heads rebuilt by Michaels, add upgraded valve springs for HFT cam (from inventory), and add some steam holes for a 400. ($500). These were the heads I originally put on the S10 blazer's 350, only to find they had a bent valve.
I slowly re-assembled the short block last fall and really got a fire under my ass about it last weekend when I fully assembled the engine and got it fired on the engine cradle.
So, that's the long history of how we got to this point. So, I'm basically into it for a fresh $650 plus some gaskets and labor. Keep in mind, this block is now .040-over, a lot for a 400, it's got a .020/.020 cut crank, and the crank journals were line bored, which requires the use of special .005-shorter timing chain. There's nothing left to give. It does have forged pistons and decent rod bolts. If it stays together, it should be pretty strong.
-Dave
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Re: 408 resurrection / potluck
So why do all this work when I have a new engine coming in a few months? I figured if it ends of working, that last $650 would be pretty cheap for a strong 408. I'm sure I can get a decent buck for a *running* 408, and its probably easier to sell. If it failed, I still have a new engine on the way. And it was *the last* $650 I'd ever spend on it and I'd know that hunk of iron was just pure garbage. But like Luke with Darth Vader, I knew there was still some good power in there. I also hadn't done any engine swaps on the car in several years, so the scars from the past have all healed.
The good news is WE GOT IT FIRED IN THE CAR TODAY!!! And it sounds GOOD.
So Paul arrived around 930, and I had done a lot of prep on Friday night. Tony ran into an issue with work, so he was going to be much later than the usual. Paul and I hustled the 383 out pretty quick. I had bought a new Edge torque converter in the fall, but never got it put in. It was for the ZZ383, not this, but we'll see how it works. We got the 408 set in with the bellhousing and converter bolted up by lunch time. It took a little goofing around to get it in, but we handled it like pros.
Tony showed up just in time for the Guidos order to be placed, and now it was time to relax and little. Me and Paul ate, and then we'd just get things re-assembled. While we were eating, we had a surprise appearance by Dave Speece and him and Tony started picking away at reassembly while we ate and BS'd. By 230, Paul was ready to call it day. Dave, Tony, and I soldiered for 2nd shift, and despite a few initial difficulties, got it fired up and running! We got it fully hot, I was able to let the Auto-Tune do some work to make it run better. It's hard to get it started, but once running, it sounds pretty strong.
Dave and Tony stuck around long enough that we got the hood back on the car! The swap is DONE, and all that is left is a bunch of tuning.
Will it run the elusive 11.9x? Will it trap at 110+? Will it munch my 700r4?
More to come..
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
The good news is WE GOT IT FIRED IN THE CAR TODAY!!! And it sounds GOOD.
So Paul arrived around 930, and I had done a lot of prep on Friday night. Tony ran into an issue with work, so he was going to be much later than the usual. Paul and I hustled the 383 out pretty quick. I had bought a new Edge torque converter in the fall, but never got it put in. It was for the ZZ383, not this, but we'll see how it works. We got the 408 set in with the bellhousing and converter bolted up by lunch time. It took a little goofing around to get it in, but we handled it like pros.
Tony showed up just in time for the Guidos order to be placed, and now it was time to relax and little. Me and Paul ate, and then we'd just get things re-assembled. While we were eating, we had a surprise appearance by Dave Speece and him and Tony started picking away at reassembly while we ate and BS'd. By 230, Paul was ready to call it day. Dave, Tony, and I soldiered for 2nd shift, and despite a few initial difficulties, got it fired up and running! We got it fully hot, I was able to let the Auto-Tune do some work to make it run better. It's hard to get it started, but once running, it sounds pretty strong.
Dave and Tony stuck around long enough that we got the hood back on the car! The swap is DONE, and all that is left is a bunch of tuning.
Will it run the elusive 11.9x? Will it trap at 110+? Will it munch my 700r4?
More to come..
Re: 408 resurrection / potluck
Now was that so hard?? Plus another engine install to ice the cake. I just wish I could have been there to help. ![Wink :wink:](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
![Wink :wink:](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
Re: 408 resurrection / potluck
That was a great 1st episode, can't wait to see if "TireSmoke GARAGE" achieves its' number goals.
Episode #2 coming in the spring at TRP. I can't wait.
Motor Trend is ok, but it ain't TireSmoke!
Episode #2 coming in the spring at TRP. I can't wait.
Motor Trend is ok, but it ain't TireSmoke!
Fred32v
GMC Canyon Crew Cab Short Box 4x4 V6!
GMC Canyon Crew Cab Short Box 4x4 V6!