'70 F100
Moderators: MostMint, wxo, Fred32v, Basement Paul, ttamrettus
Re: '70 F100
I have had these kinds of things before. Sounds like a rod is off or the timing chain is broken. There is a remote possibility that something like a gear driven water pump could be holding it up (fuel pump? distributor shaft bent?).
[quote="Basement Paul"]Is that a mint rocketship on the hood?? :shock:
-BP[/quote]
-BP[/quote]
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Basement Paul
- Posts: 3538
- Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:27 pm
- Location: In the dirt.
Re: '70 F100
Was the motor tipped in any wierd way where oil could have filled up one or more of the cylinders? The "soft" stop makes me think it's fluid...
-BP
-BP
Re: '70 F100
Basement Paul wrote:Was the motor tipped in any wierd way where oil could have filled up one or more of the cylinders? The "soft" stop makes me think it's fluid...
-BP
Good thought but the plugs are out.
Maverick
Re: '70 F100
A friend that owns a SMALL shop (and couldn't get the Edelbrock top end kit) stopped over and had a good suggestion. He suspected that the water pump shaft (broken in the wreck) had been jammed back thru the timing chain cover and it or pieces of the cover were in the timing chain.
WXO and I cancelled the planned trip to take the engine back to the junk yard yesterday. I pulled the water pump and timing cover and the water pump impeller HAD been pushed into the back sheet metal on the water pump but not far enough to damage the timing cover.
OK, I've started disassembling the engine and diminished my argument for returning the engine so why not go a little farther. Pulled the oil pan. No problems observed in the bottom end.
I think the pistons are running into something so guess I'll pull the intake manifolds and heads. IF, big IF, I can ever find the Edelbrock top end kit it will replace the heads, intake, cam, lifters, ... anyway so none of that stuff is needed. Seeing a good looking bottom end made me feel better.
Gotta go fix (replace) my wife's flat tire and then there's a car show tomorrow. Won't know what's under the heads for a few days.
WXO and I cancelled the planned trip to take the engine back to the junk yard yesterday. I pulled the water pump and timing cover and the water pump impeller HAD been pushed into the back sheet metal on the water pump but not far enough to damage the timing cover.
OK, I've started disassembling the engine and diminished my argument for returning the engine so why not go a little farther. Pulled the oil pan. No problems observed in the bottom end.
I think the pistons are running into something so guess I'll pull the intake manifolds and heads. IF, big IF, I can ever find the Edelbrock top end kit it will replace the heads, intake, cam, lifters, ... anyway so none of that stuff is needed. Seeing a good looking bottom end made me feel better.Gotta go fix (replace) my wife's flat tire and then there's a car show tomorrow. Won't know what's under the heads for a few days.
Maverick
Good News!!
Got the wife's tire replaced and decided not to take the Maverick to the car show tomorrow. Since I didn't have to clean the Mav, I had some time to go at the 5.8L.
Went at it quite methodically. Did NOT want to pull it all apart and not find the problem.
Pulled the broken water pump and the undamaged front cover and found nothing to prevent engine rotation. It still stopped. Pulled the oil pan and found no problems. Removed a ton of junk from the engine including the intakes. Everything looked good in the valley. Removed the push rods one cyl at a time checking the rotation after each cyl. It still stopped with all the push rods out. Pulled one head and found a bunch of carbon in cyl 1-4. It still stopped. Pulled the other head and found mucho carbon. Now the engine rotates freely. There was so much carbon it was preventing at least two of the pistons from traveling to the top.
If someone had suggested carbon buildup as the cause of the stops I wouldn't have thought it credible.
Took a whole bunch of junk off the engine. Hope someone wants it. Don't know how much demand there is for 351W EFI stuff.
The engine is pretty clean on the INSIDE, other than the carbon.
In spite of all that carbon, the plugs looked normal.
Anyway, the engine is good so now I'll try again to buy an Edelbrock top end kit.
Went at it quite methodically. Did NOT want to pull it all apart and not find the problem.
Pulled the broken water pump and the undamaged front cover and found nothing to prevent engine rotation. It still stopped. Pulled the oil pan and found no problems. Removed a ton of junk from the engine including the intakes. Everything looked good in the valley. Removed the push rods one cyl at a time checking the rotation after each cyl. It still stopped with all the push rods out. Pulled one head and found a bunch of carbon in cyl 1-4. It still stopped. Pulled the other head and found mucho carbon. Now the engine rotates freely. There was so much carbon it was preventing at least two of the pistons from traveling to the top.
If someone had suggested carbon buildup as the cause of the stops I wouldn't have thought it credible.
Took a whole bunch of junk off the engine. Hope someone wants it. Don't know how much demand there is for 351W EFI stuff.
The engine is pretty clean on the INSIDE, other than the carbon.
In spite of all that carbon, the plugs looked normal.
Anyway, the engine is good so now I'll try again to buy an Edelbrock top end kit.
Maverick
Re: '70 F100
What's not clear to me is where did all this carbon come from. This truck was running when it wrecked.
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ttamrettus
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:59 pm
- Location: on the edge
Re: '70 F100
running well ? Maybe a guy with a braker bar isn't enough to get it that last tiny bit to rotate but when "running" it could.
Matt Sutter
Re: '70 F100
Not clear to me either. But, since the short block looks good and I'm replacing the heads, intake, EFI with carb, and distributor I'm not too concerned about it. If the carbon had been in one or two cyl only I'd be concerned about a cracked block or warped deck but since the cyl were all pretty much the same I guess the carbon came from malfunctioning EFI or ignition. The big mystery for me is how the plugs could look so good and the cyl be full of carbon?!?!?!wxo wrote:What's not clear to me is where did all this carbon come from. This truck was running when it wrecked.
Maverick
Re: '70 F100
Yes, I think the starter would have compressed the carbon and gone on with the revolutions. I didn't force it 'cause I was worried about doing damage. Could feel something wasn't right and had to find the cause.ttamrettus wrote:running well ? Maybe a guy with a braker bar isn't enough to get it that last tiny bit to rotate but when "running" it could.
I emailed the guy in Charlotte that did the 347 for the Maverick to see if he can get the Edelbrock top end kit. If SOMEONE can get it (for a good price) Plan A would be back on track.
Maverick
Plan A Back On Track
Got the proposed alternative to the Edelbrock top end kit from Prestige Motorsports, the shop that built the Maverick's 347. Looks good. Its less expensive than the Edelbrock kit and includes roller rocker arms, push rods and a full gasket kit, none of which were included in the Edelbrock kit. Now I'm glad the Edelbrock kit didn't come.
The 5.8L cylinders still have cross-hatch and no noticeable ridges. I'm thinking the block should be stripped and hot tanked. Some dirt got into the engine when the externals came off and there is some buildup inside the water jacket.
If the rings and bearings look good everything will go back in as is. If much money is spent on the short block it should be on a stroker short block.
Have a Hughes converter in mind but I want to talk to their techs to confirm its a good choice. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hup-53-25l/overview/
Looking at this transmission controller. http://www.usshift.com/ It requires a TPS for carb. Holley makes one that may fit on a QuickFuel carb but that needs to be verified too.
Got the satin black color coat on the firewall and front frame. WXO came over and we installed the engine frame stands so the chassis is ready to receive the 5.8 when it is ready.
The 5.8L cylinders still have cross-hatch and no noticeable ridges.
I'm thinking the block should be stripped and hot tanked. Some dirt got into the engine when the externals came off and there is some buildup inside the water jacket.If the rings and bearings look good everything will go back in as is. If much money is spent on the short block it should be on a stroker short block.
Have a Hughes converter in mind but I want to talk to their techs to confirm its a good choice. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hup-53-25l/overview/
Looking at this transmission controller. http://www.usshift.com/ It requires a TPS for carb. Holley makes one that may fit on a QuickFuel carb but that needs to be verified too.
Got the satin black color coat on the firewall and front frame. WXO came over and we installed the engine frame stands so the chassis is ready to receive the 5.8 when it is ready.
Maverick
Short Block at the Machine Shop
The disassembled Windsor short block went into Boyette's Machine Shop this morning. Everything miced out good ... bores, pistons, and bearings. They'll hot tank, magnaflux, and check alignments in the block and install cam bearings and freeze plugs, clean the pistions and polish the crank.
The engine will get new rings and bearings. Decided to go the whole route and have a complete rebuild rather than a new top end and used rotating assembly. Think the value of the engine/truck will be improved enough to cover the costs.
The engine will get new rings and bearings. Decided to go the whole route and have a complete rebuild rather than a new top end and used rotating assembly. Think the value of the engine/truck will be improved enough to cover the costs.
Maverick
Re: '70 F100
The 5.8L block checked out fine and is ready to go except for cam bearings and freeze plugs, which are on order. The block should be ready next week.
Ordered rings, bearings, oil pump and torque converter. Found a 2200-2600 stall converter for $199 on sale. (Lock up torque converters are more expensive.) Ordered the top end kit from Prestige Motorsports. Have the motor mounts.
The short block will get assembled on the flimsy engine stand and then the transmission will be bolted to it, set in the chassis, and the rest of the assembly will be done there. Its nice to have the front end all off so its possible to stand next to the engine and work on it.
Ordered a set of ceramic coated/polished shortie headers for $110 off ebay. Guys on the Ford Truck forum say these headers will fit the F100 chassis with the Windsor block. Hope they do. Headers have 3/8" flange and 1 5/8" tubes. If they are as good as they look they're a real bargain.
We're having what is probably our last warm days to paint this weekend. Got the inner fenders, core support and some misc pieces primed today and will get the color on them tomorrow.
The heater will be on all night to keep the pieces warm enough for the epoxy primer to set up.
When the color goes on these pieces, that's all the paint that's needed for Phase 1 (engine and transmission install).
Ordered rings, bearings, oil pump and torque converter. Found a 2200-2600 stall converter for $199 on sale. (Lock up torque converters are more expensive.) Ordered the top end kit from Prestige Motorsports. Have the motor mounts.
The short block will get assembled on the flimsy engine stand and then the transmission will be bolted to it, set in the chassis, and the rest of the assembly will be done there. Its nice to have the front end all off so its possible to stand next to the engine and work on it.
Ordered a set of ceramic coated/polished shortie headers for $110 off ebay. Guys on the Ford Truck forum say these headers will fit the F100 chassis with the Windsor block. Hope they do. Headers have 3/8" flange and 1 5/8" tubes. If they are as good as they look they're a real bargain.
We're having what is probably our last warm days to paint this weekend. Got the inner fenders, core support and some misc pieces primed today and will get the color on them tomorrow.
The heater will be on all night to keep the pieces warm enough for the epoxy primer to set up.
When the color goes on these pieces, that's all the paint that's needed for Phase 1 (engine and transmission install).
Maverick
A fresh block is a work of art!
Rings and bearings are scheduled to be delivered tomorrow. Got a call from Prestige Motorsports this morning -- top end kit won't be ready this week but should be next week. First things that will be needed from the top end kit are the pan gasket and rear seal from the gasket set. Depending on how fast the short block goes together I may have to pick up an extra pan gasket and rear seal.
Once the oil pan is on the block, it can be set in the chassis and a test fit (with old heads) can be done on the headers (also not here yet.) It'll be good to cross off some of the open questions.
Maverick
Ring Groove Depth
Tried to install the rods/pistons today but ran into a problem with ring groove depth on the top ring. The rings fit in the cyls with good gaps and grooves are nice and clean but when the first piston was installed it bound up too tight when the top ring went in the cyl.
Pulled it out and found that the groove for the top ring isn't deep enough for that ring.
Rings are supposed to be correct for the '95 F150 5.8L but they don't match those pistons. Posted a question on www.sbftech.com (good small block Ford forum) and hope someone there has run into the issue and knows of another set of rings that will fit these pistons.
Pulled it out and found that the groove for the top ring isn't deep enough for that ring.
Rings are supposed to be correct for the '95 F150 5.8L but they don't match those pistons. Posted a question on www.sbftech.com (good small block Ford forum) and hope someone there has run into the issue and knows of another set of rings that will fit these pistons.Maverick
Re: '70 F100
Think its solved. The second groove is deeper than the top groove and one compression ring has more depth than the other. 
The only instructions with the rings were for "generic economy" rings and it wasn't real clear which was top and which second (both 1.5mm thick). Tried unsuccessfully to find some better online guideance. Thought I had it figured out but must have had it wrong. Switched them and the pistion slides in like it should.
Should have checked the groove depth in the beginning. Another day wasted. 
Oh well, at least nothing got broken or damaged.
The only instructions with the rings were for "generic economy" rings and it wasn't real clear which was top and which second (both 1.5mm thick). Tried unsuccessfully to find some better online guideance. Thought I had it figured out but must have had it wrong. Switched them and the pistion slides in like it should.
Should have checked the groove depth in the beginning.
Another day wasted. Oh well, at least nothing got broken or damaged.Maverick