1989 Pontiac Firebird Formula 350
Moderators: MostMint, wxo, Fred32v, Basement Paul, ttamrettus
I'll be happy to install anything you wish. I'd be comfortable with the 180, but I'm not too sure, though, that a 160 degree is the way to go. I've heard (but don't know for sure) that modern engines like higher running temps. I'm not sure what trade-offs there are between higher and lower temps and performance. Anyone who can shed more light on the subject, please chime in.
Ok, this is once again why I am just TheRookie. A little more research has proven that 160 isn't a good idea. 180 is universally endorsed. Looks like Autozone carries a 'high-end' version by Mr Gasket for a couple bucks more. Here's the best write up on it (with nice history):
"The all too commonly used 160 degree thermostat is way too low to be considered for performance or engine longevity. As the chart illustrates, engine wear increased by double at 160, than at 185 degrees. So then, why do the 160's exist in the first place? The 160's were commonly used in older, open loop cooling systems where only 6 pound radiator caps were used, and low 212 degree boiling points were experienced. In contrast, modern cooling systems can see upwards of 260 degrees in coolant temperature with radiator pressures exceeding 45 pounds. Many early hot rodders found the 160's to be better performing than the 190's, however, the in between "180" appears to satisfy both ends of the spectrum. The correct water temperature is required for the cylinders to achieve a minimum specific temperature in order to allow a fully homogenized Air/Fuel mixture to combust efficiently. Guess what the minimum number is… right! 180 degrees. Even so, you might see some still recommending the lower 160's, for no other reason than to possibly get that last drop of horsepower out, at the high price of dramatically reducing the life of the engine and it's internal components."
"The all too commonly used 160 degree thermostat is way too low to be considered for performance or engine longevity. As the chart illustrates, engine wear increased by double at 160, than at 185 degrees. So then, why do the 160's exist in the first place? The 160's were commonly used in older, open loop cooling systems where only 6 pound radiator caps were used, and low 212 degree boiling points were experienced. In contrast, modern cooling systems can see upwards of 260 degrees in coolant temperature with radiator pressures exceeding 45 pounds. Many early hot rodders found the 160's to be better performing than the 190's, however, the in between "180" appears to satisfy both ends of the spectrum. The correct water temperature is required for the cylinders to achieve a minimum specific temperature in order to allow a fully homogenized Air/Fuel mixture to combust efficiently. Guess what the minimum number is… right! 180 degrees. Even so, you might see some still recommending the lower 160's, for no other reason than to possibly get that last drop of horsepower out, at the high price of dramatically reducing the life of the engine and it's internal components."
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Basement Paul
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That sounds like a quality assessment to me, whether true or untrue. I know that your fuel mileage will suffer in an injected motor running a colder thermostat. You WILL get better mileage and cleaner emissions running the 192, but will sacrifice performance. I have a 180 in my truck and it does like the cooler temps for performance, and have not lost any mileage. My OBDII system will trip a code periodically when the temp outside is colder, but that will not be an issue on the Formula.
-BP
-BP
We had a nice warm afternoon today and I took some time to work on the 'bird. I replaced the broken transmission mount then checked the bolts on the transmission pan. A few of them were not tight enough. I'm not sure if that is the cause of the leaking fluid or not. We'll see.
Then I went on to the thermostat. Patrick had installed some leak sealer in the cooling system and I can still see flecks of it in the antifreeze. Maybe when Matt runs out of things to do, he can pull the plugs on each side of the block and thoroughly rinse out the engine of this stuff.
They sure buried the thermostat housing on this thing. Getting the bolt out under the throttle body was tedious, but I have patience. It turns out that the old t-stat was a 180 the same as the new one. I must have replaced it at some point in time. I don't remember. I also gave her a new cap for the coolant overflow container. It looks real nice with the white lettering and all.
She started quickly and idled smoothly while I waited for the temp to come up. I think a cam with a little bit of a lumpy idle would be real good for this lady. She idled for about 30 minutes and the temp reached 220 on the gauge then leveled off. The fans never came on. I could turn them on with the switches, but they never came on by themselves. I think the ambient temperature was about 70 degrees in the garage today. I wonder if the sender for the gauge is not sending correct info.
I still have a new passenger side door handle to install when I can get back to it. Also the RH side headlight still won't come up. I'll check that out when I get a chance.
I may start on the interior after that. Patrick or someone else cut off the connector for the radio from the car's wiring when they installed an aftermarket stereo. I'm probably going to reattach all the wires to get a radio working for my trip to Cleveland .
Then I went on to the thermostat. Patrick had installed some leak sealer in the cooling system and I can still see flecks of it in the antifreeze. Maybe when Matt runs out of things to do, he can pull the plugs on each side of the block and thoroughly rinse out the engine of this stuff.
They sure buried the thermostat housing on this thing. Getting the bolt out under the throttle body was tedious, but I have patience. It turns out that the old t-stat was a 180 the same as the new one. I must have replaced it at some point in time. I don't remember. I also gave her a new cap for the coolant overflow container. It looks real nice with the white lettering and all.
She started quickly and idled smoothly while I waited for the temp to come up. I think a cam with a little bit of a lumpy idle would be real good for this lady. She idled for about 30 minutes and the temp reached 220 on the gauge then leveled off. The fans never came on. I could turn them on with the switches, but they never came on by themselves. I think the ambient temperature was about 70 degrees in the garage today. I wonder if the sender for the gauge is not sending correct info.
I still have a new passenger side door handle to install when I can get back to it. Also the RH side headlight still won't come up. I'll check that out when I get a chance.
I may start on the interior after that. Patrick or someone else cut off the connector for the radio from the car's wiring when they installed an aftermarket stereo. I'm probably going to reattach all the wires to get a radio working for my trip to Cleveland .
Since we have time, I might go ahead and look into getting an aftermarket radio. According to Crutchfield:
1989 Pontiac Formula Coupe
with power windows
* Factory Stereo Installed [change]
Factory replacement info:
In-dash stereo
5-7/8" depth; Size code CG,GC,IR,UR
Front speakers
Dash: 4x6"
Front Door: 6-1/2" factory speaker note
Far rear speakers
Rear Seat Side Panels: 6x9"
I'll poke around and see if something interesting shows up.
1989 Pontiac Formula Coupe
with power windows
* Factory Stereo Installed [change]
Factory replacement info:
In-dash stereo
5-7/8" depth; Size code CG,GC,IR,UR
Front speakers
Dash: 4x6"
Front Door: 6-1/2" factory speaker note
Far rear speakers
Rear Seat Side Panels: 6x9"
I'll poke around and see if something interesting shows up.
You have time, Rookie. Enjoy the search. Now that you mention it, I had an aftermarket Sony CD in this car and had installed some Infinity speakers in the rear. I think I removed them when I sold the car to Patrick. I can probably still locate them up there in my treasure trove of stuff in the garage attic or you can certainly choose others.
Just out of curiosity, I cranked up the lady this morning to try to verify the temperature gauge. It appears to be accurate based on measurements at the thermostat housing done with my handy-dandy infrared gun purchased at Carlisle this summer. 220 on the temp gauge was about 218 at the thermostat. I guess I'll just assume the fans will come on when needed. It was just a bit too cool this morning. 218 was about as high as it got after about 30 minutes of idling.
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TireSmoker
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Re: Got Heat
There is one in the Tiresmoke Toolbox that is available for short or long term borrowing.markss327 wrote:Ya can't get much closer than that!
I'd like to have one of 'em infrared guns. I'm gona be interested in under hood, header temps soon!
-Dave
I took her out for a quick spin this afternoon. She sure feels good. Nice crisp shifts and plenty of guts. I let her idle in the sun and saw that the driver's side fan came on automatically at around 220 degrees. I don't know what it takes to get the RH side fan to come on (other than the RH manual switch). It could be that it only comes on when the AC comes on on a real hot day. Maybe BP knows. Anyway, I'm not too concerned about the cooling system any more. It seems to be fine at least for this weather.
Matt, the Sony CD and tape unit went belly up a few years ago. It was a good one so I had it repaired and then it went south again. I suggest you go for the one in the bush. Be careful though. Some of these units are a bear to install. I've done many of them and if they aren't designed with the car in mind or have the proper adapters, a guy can spend a lot of time getting them hooked up and installed where the dash doesn't appear chopped up. Can you show me the one you have an eye on?
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TireSmoker
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- Posts: 2440
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- Location: roaming the Matrix
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I'm a fan of Crutchfield. It's been a long time since I ordered from them (10 years, at least), so I hope their kits and service is still the same, but they have nice installation kits, wiring adapters, and excellent instructions. I'll gladly pay a few bucks more to get something from them as opposed to buying something local.
-Dave
-Dave
Well, here's the one I am thinking about for $200 which includes install kit and free shipping:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-wpiW10tCyn ... &s=0&cc=01
There isn't a whole lot of choice out there in that size. After Pioneer, who still makes the best FM tuner, there's audiovox, pyle, and jensen. Not a whole lot of good in that.
What about speakers? Does it need any? There seems to be a difference on whether or not is has power windows and how it affects the door speaker size.
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-wpiW10tCyn ... &s=0&cc=01
There isn't a whole lot of choice out there in that size. After Pioneer, who still makes the best FM tuner, there's audiovox, pyle, and jensen. Not a whole lot of good in that.
What about speakers? Does it need any? There seems to be a difference on whether or not is has power windows and how it affects the door speaker size.