Chevelle winter projects

Post by **TireSmoker** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:04 pm

I've had it. I've f*cking HAD IT. Coming out of the valley on Wilson Mills, it started running real crappy. I was barely able to make it to my parents house. I shut it off for a couple minutes, started it back up, seems to be running ok, but I didn't wanna chance having it quit and needing a tow home. It ran fine for part of the drive home, but was acting up again as I got near my house.

I give up. I'm done for this year.

markss327 · Post by **markss327** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:30 am

I feel your pain.
My suggestion, park the car. Let it sit. Make NO rash decisions at this time - like selling it.....
Spend some quality time with Linda. Enjoy the new home make-over. Something I find therapeutic, is taking the dog for a long walk. Like a mile or so.

If ya gota wrench on something, how about some 3.73s for the truck? (I'll get ya to be a truck guy yet.... )

ttamrettus · Post by **ttamrettus** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:26 pm

Dave,

I feel your pain.
I figure you did all this following stuff already but just incase.

I'd recommend starting over and retracing ALL your steps.
Make sure everything is sized correctly.
Injectors, throttle body, pump, etc.
Is the fuel tank vented? Pressure issue maybe?
3/8" return line?

Could it be a voltage issue from the charging system to the fuel pump?
I also see Holley has MAP recommendations on their website.

http://www.holley.com/data/Products/Tec ... 0242-2.pdf

http://www.holley.com/data/Products/Tec ... R10265.pdf

After you double check everything and if it doesn't work I'd try to call Holley's help line.

Holley recommends an in-tank pump, maybe that's the way to go.

If you absolutly can't get it running I'd bite the bullet and pay to have a shop put the car on a computer and dynojet to test and tune it.

http://www.smokemup.com/utils/dyno_results.php

http://www.bigshotdyno.com/index.html

Post by **TireSmoker** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:57 pm

Holley base maps don't work with Megasquirt. I'm reasonably certain it's not a computer issue. I think what I really need to help diagnose this is a fuel-pressure gauge that I can see from the driver's seat. If the car starts failing with full pressure, than I'm really out of ideas.

When I re-installed the tank after getting it cleaned last week, I installed a new Fram filter between the tank and the pump. (in addtion to a Holley filter on the pressure side). I cut open the Fram yesterday and found lots of crud, including what looks like bits of leaves. WTF? Do I take the tank back to Kaufman's Radiator along with my cruddy filter and say "Look at all this junk. Do it again." ?? On the other hand, a brand new tank is $150, sump kit is $60, plus labor to have it welded in. This is after a $160 pump, a $90 regulator, $65 tank cleaning, $135 of sump + installation.

I wouldn't mind getting an in-tank pump, but the sending unit hole in the top of a Chevelle tank is too small to get the sending unit + pump through there. A fuel cell is not an option. (for me). So, like the sump, this would require fabrication/labor by someone other than me.

This whole thing has turned into such a disappointment, I just cant put it into words.

-Dave

ttamrettus · Post by **ttamrettus** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:11 pm

Dave, I can sense your frustration. I got so frustrated once I took a jack handle to the quarter panel/trunk are of my Pontiac 6000 once. DO NOT do that to the Chevelle.

Would it be feasible to mount the pump and filter immediately outside the sump with like a 2" length of hose? For testing purposes? Tha would eliminate the not low enough compared to tank theory.

Post by **TireSmoker** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:57 pm

I went out to the garage last night (after watching Pinks). I didn't really do much with the car, I spent most of my time straightening up my workbench, organizing and putting away all the loose hardware (nuts, bolts, screws, clamps, etc), and just generally cleaning up.

I did scope out how to mount my big canister-style fuel filter. It looks like it'll mount up pretty easy using some factory holes in the frame, although it wouldn't be hanging completely straight up-and-down. Maybe a 20-degree angle? I'm not sure if it will matter or not. There wasn't much in the package regarding mount location, but they did mention potentially mounting on it on a fenderwell for a carb application, so it sounds like being mounted at an angle shouldn't be a problem.

Who knows, maybe I'll get a chance to run it at Dragway 42 before the snow flies. And then again, maybe I won't. At least my garage is cleaner.

-Dave

Post by **TireSmoker** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:57 pm

Well, I put the canister filter and it's even worse. I dunno if it restricts the pump or what, but I'm showing under 20 psi on the rail. The car can't really start -- tries to catch, but 20psi doesn't cut it. *sigh*.

MostMint · Post by **MostMint** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:39 pm

the saga continues. Somewhere in the electronics, rubber, and metal is the problem. You will find it - just a matter of when.

Wish I had some insight but all I can say is "use the force"

Post by **TireSmoker** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:10 am

The "dark side" of the force has been tempting me with a carbuerator.

Post by **TireSmoker** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:40 am

I changed out the canister for another regular Fram G3 (the 4th filter) and it runs again -- at least in the garage, I haven't road tested it. We're going for a ride on the Cuyahoga Valley Line today to check out the fall colors. Maybe after I get back I'll take it for a ride.

-Dave

MostMint · Post by **MostMint** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:18 am

TireSmoker wrote:The "dark side" of the force has been tempting me with a carbuerator.

What would it take - a 12.40?

Post by **TireSmoker** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:41 am

I'm not sure I understand your question..

As they say in poker, I sorta feel "pot committed" to this setup. I've got enough money (and time) into this thing, that it'd be really hard to go back to a carb, though tempting. Frankly, I feel like I got all the hard part right -- the electronics, the wiring and knowing how to tune it. The fuel system is supposed to be relatively straight forward. If I was forced to run 1/2 tank or more to drag race reliably, I'd tolerate it at this point.

-Dave

MostMint · Post by **MostMint** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:58 am

I meant if I ran 12.40 - would there be more pressure to go to a carb?

I was just kidding. If I were you there is no way I would give up the effort. You have proven it can work, so there are just one very annoying fuel supply problem to overcome and you'll be good to go.

Post by **TireSmoker** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:57 pm

Nah, you could run an 11.40 and it wouldn't matter much in terms of my carb/EFI decision. And you're right -- I've proven the EFI works, which is what makes this hard. If the EFI never worked right, I'd be ready to ditch it. But it did work right.

However, if 2007 proves to be as frustrating as 2006, I would certainly be tempted to go back to a carb towards the end of the season, even if only temporairly, just to prove (to myself) the performance potential of my new engine combo.

I have a real dilemma about what my next step should be. I've thought about going back to my version 1.0 fuel setup, with the pump mounted behind the rear axle and pulling fuel from my 2-tube modified fuel pickup. This was effective for a while, although it may have ultimately spelled the end of my MSD pump. It also requires plenty of fuel in the tank to race.

A second option, and very pricey, would be to 1) get a new fuel tank 2) have it modified by a company specializing in EFI for an in-tank pump. I'm probably looking at at least $500-600 to do this, but I haven't added up real numbers yet. ($150 + shipping for new tank, prob $300 for tank modification and in-tank pump, plus misc shipping and plumbing expenses). The company that does the tank conversion may or may not convert my existing tank, which could save money.

A third option would be to build a surge tank. This setup uses 2 fuel pumps. Think of a regular mechanical pump that fills up a small container. It has an overflow outlet which returns back to the fuel tank. The high-pressure pump uses the small container as its fuel source to feed the rail/injectors, and the return from the fuel rail also comes back to this small container. It's almost like a float bowl, except we let the excess fuel trickle back to the tank instead of using an open/closed valve. These are said be to very effective, pretty much eliminating any chance of uncovering the pickup for the high-pressure pump. It's just more complicated to put together. Aside from the building/buying the tank itself, all it would require is re-plumbing and remounting the high pressure pump, probably in the engine compartment. I think I'm going to investigate this option further.

The first option still leaves doubts in my mind, the second leaves a hole in my wallet, the third is just another thing to try which should be cheaper than option 2, but in reality, is another unknown.

I just need to get my car back to the point where it runs and drives reliably. Even if it ran 11s in its current state, the lack of confidence prevents me from enjoying it. I'd rather have a reliable 13.0 second car than an unreliable 11.90 car.

-Dave

markss327 · Post by **markss327** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:22 am

Whoooa, we're talking - fuel delivery to the rail - period. I don't mean any disrespect to anyone, but read on....

Let's not over complicate the issue with surge tanks, and in tank pumps.... You're 92.875% there.
The software and programming are proven. Score 1
The electrical wiring is proven and, atheistically pleasing. Score another one.
The overall cool factor of EFI, on and older muscle car - score one off the charts. "Priceless" doesn't really fit here....

Stand back and look at the big picture. We have insufficient fuel pressure, at full demand. What controls the PSI? Pump, regulator, and plumbing. Somewhere in there too, is filtration.

We have a new pump and regulator. The existing plumbing is proven. Filtration is an issue. This is where I'd start. And, I'd look at the suction side. How about a filter, a bigger filter, with more surface area. Much more. Maybe plumb in two - in parallel. Couple 'Y' fittings would work. May look funky, but for testing - who cares. Then, I'd look at the plumbing. Maybe up front around the engine compartment. Could a line be getting pinched?

Going back to a carb, is, well, like going back to an 8088 with duel floppy drives.....