Nelson Ledges Track Day 10/16/19

Information about upcoming races, swap meets & shows

Moderators: MostMint, wxo, Fred32v, Basement Paul, ttamrettus

User avatar
MostMint
Posts: 2714
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:11 pm
Location: planning a race

Nelson Ledges Track Day 10/16/19

Post by MostMint »

Today BP took his Firebird, Rachel brought her Charger and I brought the Saturn out to Nelson for a track day. Fred32v fresh off the boat and plane made it out for part of the day.

We got some steady rain and cold temps. The winds were pretty steady and really made standing around outside quite cold. Fortunately the rain let up and we had some dry track in the afternoon. I rode once with BP and once with Rachel, and got busy logging runs and modifying the tune for the Saturn. After that I decided to make some hot laps and was able to manage a best of 1:19.95.

Good times, and lots learned
Attachments
56B83CB7-99AE-4848-ABEF-94BBFAF05F46.png
[quote="Basement Paul"]Is that a mint rocketship on the hood?? :shock:
-BP[/quote]
User avatar
Basement Paul
Posts: 3372
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:27 pm
Location: In the dirt.

Re: Nelson Ledges Track Day 10/16/19

Post by Basement Paul »

For me the first few laps with MostMint were kind of intimidating. Mostly because I've never been on a road course and it was cold, raining steadily, and although I had an idea of where and how the track went, I've never been on it or any other track. The good thing about the day for me at least, was that there weren't a lot of cars, so I didn't have to worry a ton about being passed and I could focus more on the drive and not worry about getting in people's way. Although I did feel I was getting quicker in the wet, I was looking forward to driving on a dry surface.
After a one hour lunch break, the rain was done and the track was drying, but my first time out after lunch was still a little damp. Fred32V showed back up not long after that and my understanding was that the track was pretty dry by then. With him riding shotgun, I was able to get some dry laps in and start learning a lot more about how far I can push the car. Later in the day I went out on my own in the dry and was really starting to push certain areas of the track. On my last lap I was even able to spin out in the last turn to the point where I wasn't able to save it. I was laughing to myself as I knew it was coming. It's the slowest part of the track and I didn't get off pavement, so all was well.

End of the day, this was a ton of fun and a great learning experience for me. The only known lap time was something in the 1:31 area, but on that lap I did slow to let a car by on the back straight, and I know it wasn't my best. Fred was recording a few of my better laps, and I'm thinking there was a 1:29 in there somewhere, but we'll see once he evaluates them. I was definitely the slowest car out there, and I'm OK with it as I'm sure I had just as much fun as the faster cars.

We also learned a bunch about the car and what we need to do over the winter to add to the reliability for more track days (to be seen in projects to come). But I'm guessing we turned about 60 laps or so in the car, and it came home in one piece, solidifying the fact that we made a solid purchase.

I can't wait for more of these in the Spring.

-BP
User avatar
Basement Paul
Posts: 3372
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:27 pm
Location: In the dirt.

Re: Nelson Ledges Track Day 10/16/19

Post by Basement Paul »

Also, while I'm babbling, thanks to Andy for riding along on my first stint, and giving our family a good name at Nelson. After one run with him, nobody questioned me driving solo out there, and I'm sure that's because of the respect he's earned racing there and helping out. And thanks to dad for going in halves with me on the TrackBird. If that didn't happen, this wouldn't have happened.

I also really enjoyed all the other drivers there and several of the corner workers. I talked at length with all but maybe one or two. Even Fred, the active manager there was a really good guy and many times mentioned how much he liked our car, and the budget nature of it.

And I forgot to mention that I had to move over to let my niece pass me... that extra 150hp is just too much for my wimpy 3800.

OK, I"m done.

-BP
User avatar
MostMint
Posts: 2714
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:11 pm
Location: planning a race

Re: Nelson Ledges Track Day 10/16/19

Post by MostMint »

First day out in the wet with an untested package - well that is starting at square 1. Old enough to know that things can go wrong makes for a conservative beginning. But we all started there. Everyone who has done this knows there is a journey for track drivers.

Also most track day regulars know that people are out there with different skill levels, car performance levels and agendas. So being the slowest is not really a problem.

Yes we pulled some strings to get BP in there since this day was for "experienced" drivers only. Well he is past that now.

I could see in the dry later in the day you were getting a lot more out of the car.

In retrospect I probably should have taken the controls for a few laps in the wet, or maybe at the end of the day, just to help with the learning process.
[quote="Basement Paul"]Is that a mint rocketship on the hood?? :shock:
-BP[/quote]
User avatar
Fred32v
Posts: 1497
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:31 am
Location: Munson, OH. retired

Re: Nelson Ledges Track Day 10/16/19

Post by Fred32v »

I was there with my camera, took one still and two videos.
My only still photo
My only still photo
I can't even express how much fun I had riding along in to lengthy sessions.
Just watching the Highway Patrol Car leave us provided me with a little rush of pride.
I knew the extra 220+ wasn't helping TrackBird's lap times.

You can't make this stuff up, Mostmint and BP were the only two cars on the track
at the time and I have them on video.
When I realize the situation, I thought, "here we go!"

https://youtu.be/cQrsov7tsTI

And I was right.
I have the Saturn at 1:21 & 1:22, and the TrackBird at 1:29.

Just like TRP, Nelson is crazy fun!
Fred32v
GMC Canyon Crew Cab Short Box 4x4 V6!
User avatar
Basement Paul
Posts: 3372
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:27 pm
Location: In the dirt.

Re: Nelson Ledges Track Day 10/16/19

Post by Basement Paul »

I know if I spent more time with the package we have, that I could shave two seconds after another day of practicing. I know I need to work a little more on braking later, and there's a little more in carrying speed through the banked corners. By next year we'll have done a couple more things to help the car itself be a little quicker too. Between upgrades and driving, there's probably a 1:25 in there somewhere. Not to mention tire pressures and things like that we didn't monkey with. By then we'll have to get the app for my phone and a holder, and get our GoPro functioning.

One thing is for sure, I won't be going pro any time soon.

-BP
User avatar
MostMint
Posts: 2714
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:11 pm
Location: planning a race

Re: Nelson Ledges Track Day 10/16/19

Post by MostMint »

On the old pavement my 3.4 Camaro and I ran 1:32, as did Rachel and the Impala V6 police car. The other V6 Impala I think was a bit faster than that but not by much. SS ran 1:22 on the old pavement.
[quote="Basement Paul"]Is that a mint rocketship on the hood?? :shock:
-BP[/quote]
User avatar
Basement Paul
Posts: 3372
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:27 pm
Location: In the dirt.

Re: Nelson Ledges Track Day 10/16/19

Post by Basement Paul »

That makes me feel reasonably well about my first performance then. And my prediction about future performance is probably pretty accurate too.

-BP
User avatar
MostMint
Posts: 2714
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:11 pm
Location: planning a race

Re: Nelson Ledges Track Day 10/16/19

Post by MostMint »

Yesterday was a good start. Yes the car has some performance bits but there is a lot to do to get it dialed in for maximum performance on a track day. My Camaro 1:32 was in 2011 so I was right where you are at the beginning of learning to drive. I would like to drive it again now to see what my experience could do to improve times.

At 3300 lbs and 200 hp this car is 16.5 lbs per HP (curb weight 3270-3400 is spec, figure stick 6 is lightest combo, with some additional savings of AC delete)
At 2200 lbs and 135 hp the Saturn is 16.3 lbs per HP

With 200 lbs of driver that comes to 17.5 for Firebird and 17.8 for Saturn.

I'm not sure on the HP numbers. 135 is my at the wheel guess on HP. if 200 hp is at the wheels number, then without adding any horsepower or reducing weight I estimate the car can run 1:20 on street tires. In theory the RWD and front suspension geometry has to be better on the Firebird, though the solid rear axle may cost a little.

If you want to get actual weight I have a set of scales
[quote="Basement Paul"]Is that a mint rocketship on the hood?? :shock:
-BP[/quote]
User avatar
Basement Paul
Posts: 3372
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:27 pm
Location: In the dirt.

Re: Nelson Ledges Track Day 10/16/19

Post by Basement Paul »

Right now, the budget tires we bought aren't helping. Both in terms of grip and weight. These are 4lbs ea heavier than an actual sticky set of tires, which hurts everywhere, plus the adhesion is good but not ideal. BUT, I saved about $150 per tire getting these, so for now, I'm OK with it. But I'm sure this would be a huge improvement when the time comes. In the meantime, they survived the first thrashing surprisingly well for a $100 tire.

I agree with most of your assessment, but power to weight IMO only matters when you're going straight. As soon as the road veers, that 1100lbs extra takes a heavy toll (like what I did there). Also, there are two ugly bumps at Nelson that are upsetting the RWD car that wouldn't affect the FWD one. The first is the one right in the kink and the second is in the braking zone just past there. In both cases time is lost when the suspension bottoms out and unsettles the car. BUT, I believe an IRS like in your Vette would probably cure that problem. The straight axle is far from ideal.
Also, gearing on the Firebird is not near ideal. I'm in 3rd from the last turn down the whole front straight, just touching 4th right before the braking zone, and most times just leaving it in 3rd. And on the back straight, I'm only in 4th for a few seconds before the kink. I need to do the math to decide, but I think a 3.73 or 4.10 would help me out a bunch.

I'm also going to seriously look into a bigger steering wheel. In hindsight, that small wheel is giving the car a heavier feel under load, and if I got a larger diameter wheel, I think there would be more feel and less work. I actually tore up my hands some during the day. I didn't realize it until the evening, but I had some light shredding on both hands. Gloves would help, but I don't think they're the problem here.

But if we don't end up doing anything else to make it faster, it's a good tool for honing my driving skills and more important, having fun.

-BP
User avatar
MostMint
Posts: 2714
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:11 pm
Location: planning a race

Re: Nelson Ledges Track Day 10/16/19

Post by MostMint »

275 tires vs 205 tires should almost offset the weight differential, once you get far enough to invest in better tires, that should not be an issue. Also the wight distribution has to be more favorable which should help. If you ran a 305 or 315 width then it would be like 50% more width than the Saturn and enough to offset the weight 8) We started the Saturn on Kuhmo Ecstas and the Camaro had Badyear Eagle HP (low end tire) on it. Definitely want to use up your current set as there is a ton to learn - at this stage that extra $ not worth it - get some more experience first.

Can you tell any wear patterns yet? Like maybe changing front camber will also help.

Also refreshing the power steering will help with your steering wheel situation I'd guess.

I trust this car has understeer?

Saturn uses 3rd gear in turn 4 (oak tree) and turn 13, otherwise mostly fourth gear with fifth for a couple seconds in the kink and then down to braking for turn 12.

Fun yes, that is the purpose of all this. I like to say I'm in it for life experiences, since not every day has a good result. There are many levels of fun - of course the driving itself is fun, but also getting the car ready and finding those seconds or tenths in improving my line or improving the car.
[quote="Basement Paul"]Is that a mint rocketship on the hood?? :shock:
-BP[/quote]
User avatar
MostMint
Posts: 2714
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:11 pm
Location: planning a race

Re: Nelson Ledges Track Day 10/16/19

Post by MostMint »

Hmmm, need more speed?

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/it ... 127922052/

seems fishy there is no front pic
[quote="Basement Paul"]Is that a mint rocketship on the hood?? :shock:
-BP[/quote]
User avatar
Basement Paul
Posts: 3372
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:27 pm
Location: In the dirt.

Re: Nelson Ledges Track Day 10/16/19

Post by Basement Paul »

A couple things wrong with that... They never put an LS1 in a 1995, and this guy doesn't seem smart enough to know the difference. And I am actually OK with the 3800 as I'm sure it's better for a more balanced car than the LT1 would be. An aluminum LS1 would change my thought process though as I know it lightened my S10, and no doubt would be about the same weight as the 3800.

As far as understeer goes, it's only when I'm on throttle, and really only part throttle. Under full throttle the LSD works pretty hard to bring the back end with it. As it does off throttle. I guess I'm saying it's pretty easy to steer the car with the throttle. But like around Oak Tree in a sustained load, i would say it's pushing somewhat.

I'll have to look at the tires harder. I looked at them quickly and didn't see any odd wear, but wasn't paying enough attention. I'm sure a decent tubular front control arm set would help a bunch too. It can get expensive quickly if I let it.

-BP
User avatar
MostMint
Posts: 2714
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:11 pm
Location: planning a race

Re: Nelson Ledges Track Day 10/16/19

Post by MostMint »

I would stick with the ChampCar engineering lol - we don’t need no stinking tubular control arms.

I’m thinking camber adjustments which can be done cheap either at the strut to knuckle connection or relocating strut to tower connection. But first you have to know if the inside or outside of the tire are wearing more.
[quote="Basement Paul"]Is that a mint rocketship on the hood?? :shock:
-BP[/quote]
User avatar
MostMint
Posts: 2714
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:11 pm
Location: planning a race

Re: Nelson Ledges Track Day 10/16/19

Post by MostMint »

Some pics from track day. Unfortunately no Firebird pics
Attachments
9P0A9222.jpg
9P0A9116.jpg
9P0A9036.jpg
9P0A8969_1.jpg
[quote="Basement Paul"]Is that a mint rocketship on the hood?? :shock:
-BP[/quote]
Post Reply